April 7, 2020
Hacking Facebook Advertising with with Dennis Yu and Logan Young, BlitzMetrics (CXOTalk #288)

Hacking Facebook Advertising with with Dennis Yu and Logan Young, BlitzMetrics (CXOTalk #288)

is one of the most important social networks, maybe the most important social network in
the world. There are billions of people on Facebook,
and Facebook collects — God only knows what kind of data Facebook actually collects. Today on Episode #288 of CxOTalk, we are speaking
with two of the most knowledgeable Facebook experts on the planet. I’m Michael Krigsman. I’m an industry analyst and the host of CxOTalk. Before I introduce our guests, I want you
right now to tell a friend. Call a friend and tell them to watch this
show and subscribe on YouTube. That helps us out a lot, so please subscribe
on YouTube. Without further ado, I want to introduce Dennis
Yu, who is co-founder and chief technology officer of BlitzMetrics. Hey, Dennis Yu. How are you? A pleasure to see you, Michael. Hey, likewise. Dennis, tell us briefly about BlitzMetrics. We are a data and analytics company. We train up young adults to do Facebook marketing,
so they get certified in digital. We serve a lot of enterprise and small business
clients. We’ve been doing this since the very beginning,
which is May 2007 when Facebook opened the FA platform. We love to get into the data and talk about
all the things that are possible. We have built a lot of tools with Facebook
to be able to build their ad systems and build the analytics products. Okay, well, we’re going to talk a lot about
that in just a moment. Our other guest is the other co-founder of
BlitzMetrics, Logan Young, who is, sad to say, sick today but is still joining us. Hey, Logan. Hey, Michael. Happy to be on. Sorry, I’m not feeling better. It’s what happens when you travel a lot. Well, I know you guys do travel a great deal. Logan, I have to say I’ve seen a lot of your
videos, and they are just awesome. Thank you, as well as to Dennis, for taking
the time to be with us today. Yeah, we’re excited. Let’s begin with context. Why is Facebook so important? I know it’s obvious. Okay. All of our friends are there, we can share
our cat photos, and rant and rave about politics. But, beyond that, from the data, why is Facebook
so important? Facebook has scale. And, because of the amount of data they have,
you can see a Cambridge Analytica happen. You can see various fears that occur when
people could do something with their ad targeting platform. You know the same kind of ad targeting that
Facebook has gotten in trouble for, Twitter, LinkedIn, and even Google have provided the
same kind of targeting, but they don’t get in trouble because they don’t expose that
same level of targeting and they’re not seen as the big behemoth. Right? You wouldn’t kick a dog that’s injured, in
the same way, you wouldn’t see the government or the public come after twitter. But, because Facebook has such a dominant
position in data collection, then they have so much more scrutiny. Okay. With Cambridge Analytica, Logan, what’s going
on with that? Facebook is obviously in a big PR storm right
now. The Cambridge Analytica thing, we all know,
ties back to the 2016 election. A lot of people just aren’t aware about how
much data Facebook collects from people and how they make it accessible to other people. As that’s come to light, it’s freaked a lot
of people out. Facebook, in response to that, there’s been
a bit of a domino effect where they’ve now cut off third-party data providers from advertisers. You might have seen some of their commercials
that are running on TV saying, “We’re going to fix this. We’re going to get rid of clickbait, bad ads
that are spammy and all these things, and fake news.” Facebook is trying to be really proactive
right now in saying, “Yes, we have the data, but we’re going to be more responsible in
the way that we use it. Dennis, is that going to make a difference,
do you think? I think it’s just PR because Facebook has
never had a security, data, privacy, hack, breach kind of problem. They’ve always had an educational issue because
as long as the general population is relying upon the newsfeed for their news, they’re
going to fall for fake news. They’re going to sign up for things that they
never really wanted, and that’s an education issue that isn’t something that they should
have to solve, but it’s one that they’re being forced to. The reason you see the regulators continue
to try to clamp down on Facebook is because of the public outrage. How do they get around that? They have to be more transparent. They have to educate the public. They have to educate business folks like us
on what is actually possible. We were just with Facebook two days ago, and
you guys know F8 is their big developer conference they have every year. One of their executives pulled me aside and
said, “Hey, Dennis, you need to stop talking to the media about this kind of stuff because
it’s making us look bad.” I said, “What? You think I work for you? I’m going to tell people what the actual issue
is because you guys have done an awful job in education. Every time you guys make a change, everyone
is wondering what the heck is going on.” Last week we were with our buddy Michael Stelzner,
who runs Social Media Marketing. Well, that’s the industry conference for social
media marketing, and no one from Facebook was there. Logan and I were the ones that were teaching
those workshops on how to do Facebook ads. I told the Facebook folks, “You guys need
to be there at this conference speaking with us.” Now, since then, they have hired a lot of
lobbyists, as you know, in D.C., and they’ve started to redouble their efforts, but they’re
facing enterprise growing pains. They’re no longer a tiny company. We talked to one department on the ads product
side, another department on analytics, another on the sales team, and they don’t know what’s
going on between different departments, which is actually normal inside big companies. You’re going to expect that a company that
has this much data is having trouble coordinating what has to happen between the sales team
versus marketing versus PR versus policy versus the other groups. That’s normal. Okay. Facebook is basically out of control. Yet, at the same time, from a marketing standpoint,
from an enterprise standpoint, we need to be there. What does that mean? We need to be there. What does that mean for marketers? How should marketers relate to Facebook in
the best way? You guys are experts at this. What should marketers do? If you’re a senior executive — I’ll just
give a quick answer and Logan can say some more — you can’t not be on Facebook. It’s not that you want to be on Facebook,
Instagram, Snapchat, or whatever. It’s that you can’t not be there, so you have
to put some amount of effort in creating content, running ads, building teams, a social team
around this kind of stuff. But then, you don’t know how to measure the
ROI. The reason that Facebook has gotten into this
situation is that the consumers, they are using Facebook as their address book, as like
a best friend, as like the phone to be able to talk to everybody. The very thing that’s made it powerful from
the consumer standpoint is the very thing that has been hurting them from the regulation
standpoint, and it’s also the very thing that’s amazing for us as marketers because, when
it’s free to consumers, all that data, all that targeting that Facebook has exposed to
us becomes amazing because we can target and drive more sales, which puts more money into
their machine and allows them to invest more. I had a conversation with Zuckerberg a few
years ago because he was accusing me of spamming and riding the very edges of what’s possible
with their ad system. He said, “We never anticipated that developers
like you would use the data from these apps to then be able to do these other kinds of
things,” so it’s the same thing, like the guy who sold his app data to Cambridge Analytica. I’ll just back up a second. When Facebook launched the apps back in 2007,
like, Michael, if you wanted to play a car racing game, or you wanted to mine strawberries
in Farmville or whatever, the thing that made it fun is that you invited your friends, and
these users were able to share their friends’ data. That’s what created a frictionless environment. But, being able to share not just your data,
but your friends’ data is the very thing that they didn’t anticipate that advertisers or
malicious marketers would take and do other things with that data because of how you shared
the secret key. That was Facebook ten years ago kind of out
of control because they were just build fast and break things, which was their model back
then, right? I think they’re still recovering from that. I think, four years ago, they actually solved
most of those problems because they’ve tightened up the API. Their head of engineering last week made a
number of announcements about restrictions on insights data, ad targeting, partner data,
like Logan talked about, which will initially hurt us as marketers. But, in the long-run, I don’t think it’ll
matter because Facebook’s system is so smart at optimizing, we don’t need to do the fine
tuning and touching. One of the key points we got from meeting
with Facebook a couple days ago was that most of these marketers that are sophisticated
at the enterprise level, they’re actually hurting themselves because they’re touching
their campaigns. Each time you touch your ad campaigns, you’re
resetting the ad rank and the system has to learn again. If anything, Facebook is making these easier
by pulling this stuff back. It’s not because necessarily of all this privacy
stuff. It’s because that was the direction that they
were going anyway. If I could add to that, Michael, it goes back
to your earlier question, why should we be on Facebook? It’s because ads are powerful when they’re
relevant. Some time ago, Proctor & Gamble came out,
and they said, “You know what? We’ve tried this whole online advertising
and we just found that traditional works better.” Well, if you approach Facebook with a traditional
mindset where you just have one creative that you blast out there to everyone, it’s not
going to work super great for you. But, the power in Facebook is that you can
sequence messages. The average consumer needs seven touches with
a brand before they’re going to convert. Let me give you some quick examples of how
this will work on Facebook. If I have a video that I run there as an add,
I could take people that watch 50% of it and show them something else, or I could take
people that only watch 3 seconds or less and say, “You know what? They didn’t watch that video. Let me try again with these folks.” If I have an event, for example, we worked
with TiVo a while ago, they had this big event. It as a ten-year anniversary thing. I put the event out there. Some people would say, “Yes, I can go,” some
people would say, “No,” and a lot of people would say, “I’m interested, but I don’t know.” Well, I could then retarget and say, “All
the people that said they were interested but didn’t make it to the event, they might
be interested in something else,” so I can target those people with another ad. On Facebook, you can become really relevant
with your messaging in a way that you can’t do that with billboards, TV, radio, any kind
of traditional. It’s just not possible. That’s really the power on Facebook, and that’s
the way it should be. Most advertisers don’t do that, sadly. But, if you approach it with that mindset,
then Facebook really becomes powerful for you. Dennis, tell us about this concept of the
funnel. What do marketers need to know about that? I think that’s what Logan was just alluding
to. In a traditional funnel, you have top, middle,
and bottom. You have awareness, engagement, conversion,
which is actually how Facebook organizes their funnel. I guess technically they call it awareness,
consideration, conversion. We call it awareness, engagement, conversion. You have marketers that are usually in two
camps. One is, they’re brand marketers where they’re
trying to drive awareness, and they’re selling consumer packaged goods. Then you have direct marketers that are trying
to drive leads, sales, and software, and trying to drive e-commerce, that kind of thing. Then, in the middle, you have this no man’s
land of engagement. What Facebook is trying to do is bridge those
audiences. They have built, for example, a new tool that
is called Advanced Measurement, now called Attribution, which actually shows how Facebook
can drive people actually going into the store, an in-store visit, actually buying at the
point of sale. You’re tying back your loyalty programs, tying
back the POS systems, tying back email, remarketing between these different systems. Facebook is building all of these to be able
to show that, when you have a funnel, it’s not a Facebook funnel. It’s not that people are engaging on Facebook
and then they are buying on Facebook. It’s that Facebook is influencing the consumer
to buy, and this here is the big thing. It may bypass the website completely. It may bypass the landing pages. In the last couple months, because of chatbots,
Messenger, [and] Instagram ads, we have found, and they have found, through research, that
by exposing people to short messages, that actually influences their decision. Marketers that are marketing on Facebook,
when they’re driving likes, comments, and shares because they’re trying to drive vanity
metrics, a lot of those have zero correlation with the actual purchase, when you do split
tests to determine a lift test and determine, is there actually an impact. The funny thing is that most of the social
media marketers that are trying to drive likes, shares, and comments with cat photos or whatever
it is, they are not changing the underlying behavior. Therefore, what should marketers be doing? How should marketers be thinking about approaching
Facebook advertising? Yeah, I think marketers, to our other point,
need to recognize that it’s not always a one-touch conversion, and you need to sequence this
out. What we want to do is find a funnel that works
for you that you can send all your traffic down. You want to test having multiple touches,
but you want to go from the first touch all the way down to conversion and just recognize
that, again, it’s going to take multiple touches. Advertising video is so cheap on Facebook
where you can get a view for a penny or less, oftentimes we’ve seen, when we worked with
the Warriors, we were getting views for just fractions and fractions of a penny, so it’s
okay to have multiple touches. A lot of markets are like, “Oh, you know,
I don’t have the budget to put multiple touches,” but use video. That’s the best way because you’ll get the
lowest CPMs. Your cost per views are just ridiculous. Try and test videos and find one that gets
you a cost per view of one penny or less, and that’s kind of a good indication that
it might be working. Then you want to sequence a few different
videos together. Again, lead from a first touch all the way
down to they’re going to the website and then converting, purchasing your product. Yeah, video is so key. If you’re not doing one-minute videos and
15-second videos on Facebook, you’re not even in the game when it comes to Facebook because
you can’t remarket into Instagram or run things like Instagram stories 15 seconds or less
or take those same videos and run in Snapchat 10 seconds or less. A huge thing that we see organizations struggle
with is being able to make video central to their strategy. It’s not just, “I hired a couple videographers,”
or, “I hired an agency that produced some videos,” or, “I’m taking my TV ads,” which
is the number one mistake they do is just take their TV ads and try to run them on Facebook. It doesn’t work in a sound-off environment. It doesn’t work in a vertical environment,
which is why you’d want to run square videos as your number format, things like that. When you have video as central to how you
drive engagement and sales at every step in the funnel, then you realize that you need
to understand video analytics. There’s a different set of analytics on video
analytics than Web analytics. You need to understand video production because
there’s a certain way that you’re going to edit and shoot these things for people that
are 80% on their mobile phone. There’s a certain way you do video sequencing,
which is telling stories in light-weight touches. Instead of a 20-minute webinar infomercial,
how do you tell stories in 15 seconds, what Facebook calls “out of sequence targeting”? You might have five or six different messages,
and they all occur in a different sequence. You need to figure out how to tie them into
a catalog. If you had a product catalog and you’re serving
dynamic ads, even if you’ve not e-commerce, you’ve got lots of pieces of content based
on the personas and products you’re targeting with all different kinds of triggers, organize
your content into a topic wheel, which is what we call it, so that people who like this,
they also like that content. People who open this email or like this product,
they might also like this other product. People who follow this person, they might
like this other person. How do you build your content to be able to
fit that format? That’s really the challenge that people have. That means you have to build lots and lots
of videos in a particular structure, which is not your content library. Most people will say, “Okay, here’s our January
and February,” and they have a content calendar. Right? “Here’s our April content. Here’s our May content,” instead of, “Here’s
our content on this theme, and here’s our content on another theme.” That’s why marketers struggle so much. Every time Facebook makes a change, their
content calendar and their silo way of organizing their marketing content doesn’t fit the way
Facebook wants it. What’s the best way to do that? Also, how do you organize? If you’ve got a series of very short videos
and you have dozens of them, how do you organize all of that so that you keep the sequences
together and flowing in the way that you want? Right. There are three types of content in terms
of the categories. The first one is calendar driven, like Dennis
was mentioning. That’s tied to some event: 4th of July sale,
Black Friday, Christmas. Then you have spontaneous, which is tied to
just random things happening: news, sports teams winning, elections. In the middle, you have evergreen content. That’s content that can live forever. This is where you want to focus the majority
of your time creating is these evergreen sequences. When you have an evergreen sequence, it’s
different videos that, again, once you find the Rubik’s Cube, you solved the path that
kind of works–video A works well with video B, then video C, and then they convert–you
want to send all your traffic down that. We’ve seen one in ten pieces of content is
what we call a winner on Facebook. We recommend starting with a 3×3 where Dennis
mentioned you have a three-funnel where you have awareness, engagement, and conversion. For each of those stages, I want to have three
videos to test, initially. I have three videos for awareness, three for
engagement, and three for conversion. Again, I could have more. I could do a 5×5 or a 10×10. But, keep it a little bit simple to start. The point is that you might create something
you think is really good, but we always like to let the data tell, so we want to put out
there, initially, a small budget. Facebook is fantastic. You can test things for as little as a dollar
a day. Again, you can’t do that traditionally. The first ad I ever ran was in a newspaper. It cost $600; didn’t work. Facebook, you just spend a few dollars. You can quickly find out if the content is
good or not. Create this 3×3: three videos for awareness,
three for engagement, three for conversion. Put them all out there to test. Then, hopefully, you’ll find some winners. Those are the ones you want to run with and
start building out those evergreen sequences. It’s a key point. That’s what we call a “Greatest Hits.” See, a lot of marketers, they make the mistake
of constantly focusing on creating new content – more and more new content. If you create content that’s evergreen, there’s
content that we have used that’s from years ago that continues to produce. Logan and I, we went to a Guns N’ Roses concert
because they were playing at MGM Resorts International, one of our clients, and Appetite for Destruction
was 1987. Is that right? They’re continuing to earn royalties off of
that. In almost every single industry that we’ve
worked with, with the exception of news media and publishing, when you’re able to organize
your content into this 3×3, a story is going to last forever. Expertise you share on how you do something,
that’s going to last forever. When you have things that are working well,
you’re going to use the ad systems. This is the one time Facebook should actually
pay us a commission because we’re wearing their shirts. When you find things that are working, the
way to get an extension off of it is you put money on it. You allow it to live longer in the newsfeed. You recycle that into email. You mention it in a chatbot. You put it on a landing page. You recycle the winner. You try to get more out of the winner, which
is the idea of amplification so that if you’re a CMO and you’ve got your marketing channels
organized properly, you should be spending 80% of your time optimizing winners, things
that you already have, and only 20% of the time trying to come up with new content. But, most people have it where they’re like
90% of the time trying to make new content, which is just like whiffing, trying to get
home runs every time, and they’ve got winners that they have allowed to die. When you talk about the winners, you basically
advertise or see what works and then choose the ones that seem to be performing the best. Then put more money behind it? Yeah. Ashley Furniture, for example, they’re called
Ashley Home Store now. They have some videos of some of their top
salespeople not selling. When I’m decorating on a budget, these are
the kinds of tips that I have, and these people are showing themselves, their personalities,
who they are–they’re a student in school; this is how they’re earning money on the side–just
showing how they’re human, and those kinds of things — two years ago, they were putting,
“Oh, 4th of July blowout sale! Half off! Come out for free hotdogs!” or whatever. Their cost per engagement was something like
$0.28. Now, using the technique of providing video
instead of recycling their TV ads, creating real video based on humans, so people can
identify with the stories of who these people are actually sharing expertise, creating value,
like we all hear but don’t do, they have driven that cost down to $0.02 or $0.03 per engagement. And, more importantly, because they have tied
the point of sale in each of their store locations back to Facebook, they have found that it
drove an 11 ROAS, so every dollar spent in Facebook ads drove $11 in sales. Now, I think they’re up at like an 18 ROAS
month-over-month, or they get back $18, and people are actually buying furniture, chairs,
sofas, and tables, and that’s what they want, right? Before, they were measuring on, “Oh, well,
we were able to drive our customer engagement from $0.28 down to $0.25.” “Oh, our fan base went from 100,000 to 120,000.” Facebook is saying those metrics don’t matter
anymore. What matters are the business metrics, and
that means you have to have your analytics, tracking, and all the tagging all the way. You have to track everything all the way down. That means you’ve got to do some IT infrastructure
API stuff to bring that stuff back in. Otherwise, you have no idea the ROI of what
you’re doing on Facebook. It’s not sufficient, your ROI having more
likes or more followers. That’s not an ROI. That was a ten years ago game. Yeah, we were just at Facebook two days ago
at their headquarters in Chicago. They told us, “Do not choose that as an objective,
you know, growing the fan base, getting engagement, just likes, comments, and shares.” That’s great, but it doesn’t correlate in
their studies of looking over the data to people actually buying. They’re vanity metrics. They look nice. It makes you look big but, ultimately, it
doesn’t make your bank account bigger. Isn’t awareness crucially important and don’t
these vanity metrics tie to awareness? Awareness is important so long as you can
track it all the way through to engagement and all the way through to some kind of conversion. But, awareness, just because you want to blanket
the Internet with as many cheap impressions as possible, doesn’t really mean anything. The key to awareness is that you actually
have what’s called a causal conversion, meaning that you’re able to change someone’s behavior. Just because you can expose somebody to a
banner ad, to a video, or to whatever it is, doesn’t change their behavior, necessarily,
unless it is meaningful and relevant to them. Facebook has put out the relevance score as
an estimate of, “Do we think that people are engaging with it?” as the number one factor. Number two, it’s de-weighted by negative feedback
because Facebook is crowdsourcing is content working or not. Organically and paid, it’s the same algorithm
determining what shows up in that feed. They’re using combinations of positive and
negative feedback to say, “Is this something that users want?” and that’s why Zuckerberg
is saying that advertising, he doesn’t believe, is going to be adversarial in the long-run. It’s going to be like a recommendation from
a friend that happens to be paid because, for us to think about Facebook properly, it
has to be the ultimate word of mouth machine. Simply using Facebook as a distribution channel
where you just put money in the vending machine and it shows ads at people, that’s not going
to work. But, if you find these signals, if you are
able to collect videos of people that are sharing content, of your people, of customers,
of things that are funny, of different one-minute videos of “why” stories, of sharing knowledge,
and then you allow the system to optimize for friends of fans, you allow the system
to bid to a business objective, then you will have stacked from awareness to engagement
to conversion. Let me give you one quick example. One of the things that we used to do, we spent
millions of dollars that we didn’t realize until recently, is that we were bidding to
website clicks because, if you come from a Google world, then you want more clicks. You’re bidding everything based on cost per
click. Then you’re going to compare your cost per
click on Facebook, right? You’d think that makes sense. Actually, that’s wrong because what’s more
important than a click is a landing page view. What’s more important than a landing page
view is someone actually buying or becoming a lead. Because websites load so slow, the average
website loads in eight seconds, we’ve seen in many cases that we’ll lose two-thirds of
the traffic where it’s counted as a click on Facebook’s side, but it doesn’t make it
all the way to the webpage, all the way loaded, because people don’t have the eight seconds
on mobile to wait. That means you have to implement things like
Google Amp and Facebook Instant Articles, which is instant loading of your content. Those are things that people that are doing
Facebook marketing in a silo, they don’t realize they need to do. They just say, “Oh, I ran ads on Facebook
and it doesn’t work.” Well, yeah; your website was just leaking
all the traffic. You weren’t using the tools that Facebook
and Google have provided to make things load immediately. You were choosing the wrong objective because
you were choosing people that would just click on stuff and never buy instead of telling
Facebook, “My objective is to buy.” You still want awareness, engagement, and
conversion, but you want to have the right audiences, and you want to have the right
content at each of these phases. That’s why Facebook now has things like lift
testing. We spent a couple million bucks for Rosetta
Stone, and Facebook paid for a lot of it, which is cool. We did the same thing for YouTube, by the
way. We took their money as well. We put them side-by-side and we said, okay,
here’s a group of all the people that we have email addresses for, for Rosetta Stone. Let’s say nine million people. Half of them, we’re going to show some Facebook
videos. We’re going to expose them to videos, half
of them randomly, or not, and then we’re going to send our regular email saying, okay, “Christmas
sale,” and we’ll see, of the people that were exposed to Facebook, were they more likely
to buy in any channel, not buying through Facebook, but if they’re more likely to open
their emails, they’re more likely to come to one of our stores and buy, they were more
likely to come to the website and buy? We found that the majority of the lift actually
occurred outside of Facebook. Facebook is where we were able to get the
reach, but the sale — you see, Facebook changed their behavior. That’s the thing is you want a causal conversion
because it changes their behavior. That’s the way you really want to be thinking
about Facebook, not mass impressions and likes; you want to change their behavior so that
they’re going to buy wherever they want to buy. That’s why Facebook is an amplifier to these
other channels. That’s why you need to be able to tie all
these systems together from a data standpoint. At the end of the day, then, is the value
what happens off of Facebook? Facebook is a mechanism to drive people away
from Facebook? Obviously, no. As a marketer, yeah, we’re most concerned
about getting the results, whatever channel it happens in. We don’t really believe in just being a Facebook
expert or Google expert. A lot of people think we’re Facebook experts
but, really, you should just be a digital marketing expert or advertising expert because
all these channels should work in conjunction with one another where it should be the same
strategy and the same sequences across Facebook, Google Twitter, Snapchat, [and] email. These are all different channels where people
might start on Facebook, maybe as more top of funnel, and maybe they like to end on Google
because they see Facebook on their mobile. Then when they’re home, they search desktop
Google. Then they buy on the website, right? They all work together. It’s the same strategy behind all of them. It’s the same content, just in different places
across them. We don’t view them as separate, and we don’t
think people should either. There shouldn’t just be these siloed experts. All the channels should work more together. Your video sequencing strategy, you do that
for, say, Facebook and then do that for LinkedIn. Is that how you think about it? Facebook, LinkedIn, YouTube: each of these
properties is a little bit different with the intricacies. Long form video works a lot better on YouTube
than on Facebook. The average watch time on Facebook for video
is only six seconds. The average watch time on YouTube is over
two minutes. If I have a longer video, like Dennis mentioned
earlier, maybe I do have a webinar, then I have to just recognize that I don’t want to
particularly use this on Facebook, but it might work well on YouTube. But, if I have shorter videos, like Dennis
was talking about earlier, if I have 15-second videos, one-minute videos, then I know those
are going to work great on Facebook. It’s taking things where they make sense and
using it all together. We have an interesting question from Twitter. Shelly Lucas asks, “What about organizations
that are looking at metrics, looking at changes in behavior that is not a purchase, for example,
influencer advocacy, because not all organizations can track social to a purchase and it can
depend on the maturity of their social program?” What about nonpurchase activities? Where do the metrics fit in for that? You can do the same thing, so you can have
a proxy metric. You can use a secondary metric like leads. You can survey. Facebook has a brand awareness tool, which
also gives you free serving at the end. You can run a poll against different audience
groups and say, “Are you more or less likely to buy?” You know, “Is your opinion more favorable
or less favorable?” If you have these metrics at different points
in the customer journey, even if you don’t have the very bottom because there’s some
crazy integration with Salesforce, it’s offline, it’s many, many touches later, or a high-end
product, you can always step back up a couple levels and use those intermediate metrics
as diagnostic metrics. You can still do lift testing. A simple lift testing is, I’ve got a new cancer
cure. Some people get the pill. Some people get the sugar placebo. You’re going to do the same thing. You’re going to think about Facebook in a
scientific way where everything is an experiment. It’s not because they don’t have the data. It’s not because they have all this data and
you can run ads and there’s a lot of volume. It’s because you can segment this way. If you set up your campaigns to do this, which
is very simple, which is already now built into the way that their ad sets are organized,
Facebook does that for you. What about if you’re selling a product? I work with a lot of marketing organizations
in very large software companies. They are interested in reaching the people
who are influential in their market, say industry analysts, maybe journalists. What about a Facebook campaign where the goal
is simply to build awareness among that specific target group? Okay. You’re a SaaS company, and you want to be
featured at Digital Marketer, Social Media Marketing World, Forrester, Jupiter, Altimeter,
all these different places, Wall Street Journal, CNET, whatever it might be. If you have, in your content library, a list
of all the places where your founder or your top people were interviewed, where your best
customers have shared on stage, in an article, podcast. All of us have these kinds of things, right? You can take those items. Here’s the key. A) You have to assemble that list. B) Assuming you have that list, you cut out one-minute
snippets, video ideally. You upload those natively to Facebook. You don’t put a YouTube link on Facebook. That’s like wearing Nike to Adidas headquarters. You don’t do that. Then, you boost it to the people who are fans
of whoever that publication is. You can also still target a lot of people
who work at these places. A lot of workplace targeting, and job title
targeting, has gone away on Facebook, but you know what? You can do the same thing on LinkedIn. I can target all the people that work at Forrester. I can target all the people that work at Facebook. Some of the engineers at Facebook, we’ll go
to a meetup, and they’ll say, “Hey, Dennis. You’ve got to knock off the Facebook targeting,
dude, because, like, I see your ads all the time. I totally know you.” My buddy Jeff Fowler does digital for the
Wall Street Journal. (Indiscernible, 0:31:56) … “I’ve been seeing
your ads all over the place. I know you’re targeting people that work at
the Wall Street Journal.” Not people who read the Wall Street Journal;
people who work at the Wall Street Journal. If you hear about things like account-based
marketing, this is an extension of account-based marketing using the paid side. If you want to influence people, then you
want to influence the influencer. The idea of inception, which is the dream
inside the dream inside the dream, is I want to target; I want to show the content that’s
high authority of the people that my audience respects, and then I want to deliver that
against other people that are also high authority that will respect those people. I will use Facebook as an amplifier. I have to put in my high authority articles. I can boost those articles. I can boost the one-minute video snippets
that I’m editing, and I can think of Facebook as an extension of PR, but I’m using the ad
system instead of using these people that are just like spamming journalists like me
saying, “Hey, write a story about my stuff,” right? Then the videos, you’re saying that the videos
need to be one minute in length. Why? What’s the magic about one-minute videos? One minute is for several reasons. A) We find that most organizations, especially
in B2B, is that they have this aversion to wanting to create video. For some reason, they have arthritis and they
just want to produce video, or they want to spend $50,000. They want to hire a professional video crew
and all this. If you want to run a marathon and you’ve never
run before, can you walk a mile first? Just walk a mile first. Then we’ll talk about a 5K, half marathon. We want to get them into the habit of producing
one-minute videos because you and I know that it’s way harder to pull out your iPhone and
do a one-minute video than it is to do a 60-minute or, in this case, 45-minute webinar, right? You’ve got to get right to the point. One-minute forces you to tell a particular
story. You can’t ramble. It has to be on one topic. It has to be on one thing that happened, “Oh,
one day this one thing happened and it’s something that I learned,” to confine it to that one
story. Users’ attention spans are lower and lower,
even if you’re marketing to people that are 50-plus. What was it that Facebook shared, Logan? It was something like people consume content
two times faster on mobile than on desktop. It was some statistic like that. We have a couple of questions from Twitter. The first one is Arsalan Khan. He asks, “How can bloggers generate good leads?” He says in his case he’s in the management
consulting industry. How can he generate leads using Facebook for
his blog? I’ll just take the beginning part of that
one. Leads assume that you have some kind of lead
magnet. You have some piece of content that’s so valuable,
people are willing to put in an email address. It doesn’t have to be this long thing like
a course. It could be simply a goal or a list of five
things, whatever it might be, enough to get someone’s email address. I think the best thing for you is, as a blogger,
you use Facebook lead ads. You tie that in with a Messenger bot, for
example. You could use Mini Chat or MobileMonkey. It’s so easy using Messenger and using Facebook
lead ads, which is integrated. It automatically prepopulates the email address
and name. You should be able to get leads for like a
$1 or $2. I guess it depends on what vertical you’re
in. If you’re targeting really senior people in
a very niche industry, maybe it’s like $5 or $10, but absolutely. If you’ve got your content that demonstrates
authority, if you’re a blogger, however much audience that you have right now, and you
look at your Google Analytics and see how many people are coming, remarket from that
audience. Remarket from that email list into your lead
magnet using Facebook. Tie that in with a one-minute video saying,
“Hey, I’m Michael. I created this guide on the seven ways on
how to do–” whatever it is. “I’d love to give it to you right now. Just put in your email address.” They hit, “Send Message,” or whatever the
button is that you choose for the copy, and they instantly get that. You instantly get their email address. Lead gen, you can skip the website completely. If you have Marketo, Infusionsoft, or whatever,
you can use that too. But, everything that Facebook is doing is
around making the experience frictionless, where you can get that result immediately
without having to tie in with all these other tools. If you’re a blogger and it’s just you, and
you don’t have a big team, it’s easy. Look at your Google Analytics over the last
three or four years, or whatever. Find out what your best content is, what has
gotten the most traffic, what ranks number one in Google, what is your best lead source. If you don’t have a lead magnet around that,
make a lead magnet there. Run a Facebook lead ad to that particular
asset, and I think you’ll find it converts super well. Your conversion rate from clicks should be,
like, 30%, 40%. It should be really amazing. Doing all of this right on Facebook? Yeah, for a dollar a day is all it costs you. You don’t need a big budget. You don’t need to hire a bunch of people. A dollar a day, put up your lead magnet, remarket
against the people who have been to your website in the last 30 days or who are in your email
list. Okay. We have another question from Zachary Jeans. This is an interesting one. “What has been most challenging to you or
challenging you as a digital market, recently?” In other words, what is the nut that you’re
trying to crack? I think the hardest thing, and I don’t mean
to be condescending, is getting people to make one-minute videos. It could be the executives at the company. It could be motivating the VP of marketing
to collect this from their customers, integrating it in their operations to collect one-minute
videos. For example, one of our clients, they do wedding
photography. At the point of sale or where the wedding
photographer is taking all these photos, that photographer is also asking, “Hey, will you
also tell us in one minute how we did?” “Oh, yeah, it was amazing. I loved the photos you guys took. You guys were prompt and serious,” and all
that kind of stuff. It’s how do you integrate into your operations
to get some one-minute videos? Even if you’re not doing something at scale,
get just a few of them. If it’s a smaller organization, or if it’s
people that you’re sending out to speak at conferences that are figureheads by definition,
how do you get one-minute videos out of them? Look, all you need is an iPhone, and all you
need is one minute, so you can’t claim you don’t have any money, and you can’t claim
you don’t have enough time. I don’t care how many meetings you have. You have one minute. It takes you more time to make excuses than
to make the one-minute video. I know I’m kind of complaining, but that is
the number one thing because, without being able to put lots and lots of one-minute videos
into the system, then the system can’t optimize. Especially B2B and enterprise, they have this
fear of doing something wrong, but they only put out one shot. If only had one shot to make a free throw,
that would be super risky, right? But, if I had 20 shots to make a free throw,
I don’t feel like there’s a lot of risk. Getting going and making lots of one-minute
videos, which doesn’t take a lot of money, doesn’t take all these other agencies, is
the number one challenge because, without the one-minute videos, we can’t do the 3×3
grid. Without the 3×3 grid, we can’t get to the
why to the how to the what. Without the remarking, we can’t drive the
eventual sale. Without the eventual sale, we don’t have the
money to justify bootstrapping and putting more and more investment into here. Then you have more meetings talking about
nonsense instead of, “Let’s actually take some baby steps. Let’s optimize. Yes, most of your one-minute videos will suck,
but they’re not movie theater quality. But, the ones that look like advertisements
are the ones that don’t get clicked on anyway.” You know what I’m talking about. You don’t click on ads, do you? No, of course. What are the attributes of a great one-minute
video? We only have about five minutes left, by the
way. We’re almost out of time. That seems important. Given the emphasis that you place on one-minute
videos, let’s talk about one-minute videos for a moment. One-minute videos, there are four components
that you want to make sure you include. The first is you want to have an interesting
hook or intro because, again, we know the average watch time on Facebook is only 6 seconds
and 70% of your traffic will not even watch the first 3 seconds. Some cardinal sins to avoid is: don’t use
a bumper. Just get right into the point. Hopefully, you’re telling a story. A lot of people want to introduce themselves,
but more exciting than me saying, “Hey, I’m Logan. I went to BYU. I’m 27,” is if I say, “When I was 16, I got
held up at gunpoint,” or, “When I was three, I went to SeaWorld and got attacked by a seagull.” Those are a lot more interesting hooks that
lead into a story. Obviously, people want to watch from there. That actually happened, both of those. Then, the second thing is then you ignite
some kind of pain or pleasure, so you create empathy with the consumer. Okay, why should I continue staying here? Is it a problem with a product or a service? Then you need to describe the solution and
then have some call to action at the end. So, start with a hook. Give them some incentive to watch. Again, we love just telling stories. Ignite some kind of pain or pleasure. What’s the problem they have as a consumer? What is your solution as the advertiser for
the brand? Then, what’s the call to action? It could be a hard call to action. It could be, “Click now to buy,” or it could
just be, “I’m looking forward to talking with you more,” or, “Learning more about you,”
or something like that. Okay. You create your one-minute videos, and now
you start to populate the tools. Facebook doesn’t call it a funnel but, essentially,
the funnel: brand awareness, conversion, and so forth. What’s the relationship? Do you run these in sequence? What’s the best way to go about it? Yeah. If you have nine one-minute videos–3 why,
3 how, 3 what–just post them all at once, unless you have such a giant audience that
it’s going to cause newsfeed overlap. I just say, put them all out there because
your organic reach is so low anyway, like I’m not even worried about that. The average organic reach is 2% and it’s going
down. People complain that it’s gone down even further. Two percent is basically zero. You put it out there. Then, as these different videos are starting
to get engagement, the ones that are doing well according to what Logan talked about,
these standards of excellence, the ones that are getting a high watch time like north of
15 seconds and an engagement rate of more than 10%, which is the number of people that
like, share, and comment divided by the views, then you’re going to put more money against
that. You’re going to initially put a dollar a day,
so you’re going to spend $7. But, the ones that are working, you’re going
to put another $30 for another 30 days. Then, pretty soon, you might have 30 or 40
of these videos, each of them spending $1 or $2 per day. Now, you’ve got a funnel that’s self-reinforcing
because things that are working, you’re putting more money against. That creates a larger remarketing pool because
you can remarket. People who watch video one, I want to then
show them video two. If they watch video two, then I’ll show them
three, four, five, or six. The more people that fit into each remarketing
category, the more budget I can spend because those marketing pools are increasing. Now, Facebook is doing the work for me because,
the whole point of collaborative filtering, you know on Amazon, like, people who bought
this, they bought that, or Netflix. Oh, you’ve watched this movie. You’ll like that movie too, maybe. That’s the same thing that Facebook is doing. That’s the same thing that’s going on in the
newsfeed. When you organize your content in this way,
Facebook is going to do the work for you and say, “Oh, people who liked video 3, they also
seemed to like video 10,” and they will make that connection for you. If you put the buckets together in the 3×3,
they will figure out what video is best to serve next. You do not have to figure that out for them. You need to just put it out there, set up
the remarketing audiences, and then set your business objective, and Facebook will figure
out what the next video is that that person needs to see. Okay, so you basically create three videos
for awareness, for engagement, for conversion. You put them out there. A dollar a day behind each one of those nine
videos. You see what works, and you then put additional
promotion behind the ones that are the winners. $63, anybody can afford. It’s $7 times 9 videos to run for a week. Then, after that week, you’re going to put
more money against the winners. Guess what. Like Logan said, 90% of the videos you make
are going to suck. Okay. Just keep making more. Now, I’ll make another batch of nine videos
and then test again. Now, I’ll make another batch. We’ve seen ones, for example, that are so
good. We started at $1 a day and most people are
like, “Oh, I’m enterprise. I’m a big company. That’s nothing.” Well, we’ve seen ones we started at $1 a day,
and now they’re at $50 a day, and they’ve run for a year. It starts to add up because now you have a
stacking. Now your funnel, you’re stacking many, many,
many videos, each of them spending a few dollars a day. All of a sudden, you’ve got 50 or 100 of these
little minions that are each doing work that are being triggered by particular condition
because someone, we just got their email. Now we’re going to show them this video. Oh, they just joined our list. Oh, they became a fan. Oh, they just bought our product. Any particular condition, we’re going to sequence
the next action. Now, you’re a multichannel marketer. Okay. I have a friend who is a CMO. The CEO of that company believes that promotion,
that paid promotion is “not valid.” We hear that all the time. But, guess what. You pay to send things through FedEx or the
post office, don’t you? We think of Facebook as digital postage, right? You certainly pay to have pizza delivered
to you. You’re paying for distribution. Don’t think of it as advertising. Think of it as social postage. If you’re a CMO, a CEO, or a CXO, you need
to have a public figure page, which is not your profile. It’s a business page that looks like Michael
Krigsman as a profile, but it’s you as a page, a business page. Then you’re going to put one-minute videos
about who you are, what you believe in and, if you want, some family stories, so people
can relate to you as a human. That’s what creates sales. That’s what gives permission to everyone else
in your organization to also share their brand because your company’s brand is the sum of
the personal brands of your employees, customers, and advocates. Okay. Wow! We’re pretty much out of time. Let’s finish up by my asking each of you for
final thoughts, words of wisdom for marketing, based on everything that you know. Logan, should we start with you? Sure. Based off the last thing he said, we can all
agree; word of mouth is always going to be more powerful than advertising and it’s a
better way to go about it. But, ads are powerful when they’re relevant. My favorite example is, if I’m driving down
the freeway on a road trip and my tank is empty, I’m totally okay seeing an ad that
tells me there’s a Chevron at the next exit. Or, if I’m really hungry, I’m totally okay
seeing an ad saying there’s a McDonald’s two miles down the road. If people buy when there’s a need, think about
how you can use that to your advantage and recognize that, as a marketer, advising is
not just about blanket spamming people and sending it to as many people as you can. That is not valid. But, when you actually have something that
solves that person’s need and there’s actually a relevancy, then the ads are a really amazing
thing and the consumer is really grateful for them. It’s just as good as word of mouth. I think that’s the big takeaway that a lot
of people don’t understand. But, if we can get to that point as advertisers,
then that’s when you win. Okay. Relevancy is the key; not just throwing content
out there but understanding your audience. Dennis Yu, if you would share with us your
final thoughts, advice for marketers who want to engage in this way with advertising promotion. Look. Marketing is confusing. People are off balance all the time. There are all these different … (indiscernible,
0:47:15). There’s fear of missing out. My number one thing is, find the things that
are working for you already. I bet you, you’ve got content that’s a home
run that was maybe a couple years ago that you’ve forgotten about. Find where it is. Was it an email? Was it something that’s ranking well in search? Is it something that worked in YouTube? Take those assets and copy them over into
Facebook and make them work on Facebook. You’re going to save yourself a ton of headache
because the system will learn. Look at your top posts on Facebook. Look at your top blog posts. The things that have worked the best, you’re
going to put more money on. The things that suck, do not put more money
on. They’re already dead. If you got the e-brake on, do not floor the
car. That’s not what you do. Find your winners. Then, instead of trying to fight Facebook
like most people try to fight Google on SEO by trying to trick their way around it, then
the system is going to work for you. I’ll tell you one quick joke. A genie; the guy is walking on the beach. He gets the genie. The genie says, “I’ll give you three wishes
but, everything you do, your ex-wife gets double.” He says, “I want 1,000 Lamborghinis.” Boom. The ex-wife gets 2,000 Lamborghinis. “I want $10 million.” The ex-wife gets $20 million. The final wish, “Genie, I want you to knock
me half dead.” That’s what’s going on, on Facebook. Yes, there’s a lot of change. Yes, you have to advertise, the “pay to play”
game. But, the winners are going to win more because,
when you have good tracking, when you have better goals, content, and targeting, everyone
else is getting crushed. That eliminates your competition. That means you’re focusing on your winners
because that’s the only stuff that’s going to stay when the algorithm is super competitive. Okay. Great advice. Well, this has been a very, very fast conversation. I want to say thank you to our two guests
who are both co-founders of BlitzMetrics and truly among the most knowledgeable people
in the world on the inner workings of Facebook. Dennis Yu, thank you so much for being here,
and I hope you’ll come back and do this another time. Logan Young, thank you for being here and
for being here while you’re sick. Thank you, guys, so much. Everybody, next week we have another great
show. Take a look at the website, CxOTalk.com. Don’t forget to subscribe on YouTube. All right, everybody. Have a great day. Thanks so much.

1 thought on “Hacking Facebook Advertising with with Dennis Yu and Logan Young, BlitzMetrics (CXOTalk #288)

  1. I saw Dennis and Logan speak in January. Two extremely practical and insightful Facebook marketers. Thanks for hosting them.

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