April 9, 2020
Ep. 11 – Hiring & Delegating to Grow Your eCommerce Business – with Nathan Hirsch

Ep. 11 – Hiring & Delegating to Grow Your eCommerce Business – with Nathan Hirsch


Hiring is hard. You make a lot of bad hires
and you finally find someone you like. So what do you do? You load them up with everything.
While, all of a sudden, your business became a lot more risky. That person quits, it can
take you months to replace them and really set your business back. You don’t have to
go overboard. You don’t have to hire 5 customer service reps to handle 5 emails a day. But
make sure as you’re hiring, you’re not putting all your eggs in one basket. Welcome to Honest eCommerce where we are dedicated
to cutting through the BS and finding actionable advice for online store owners. I’m your host, Chase Clymer. and I’m your host, Annette Grant. And we believe running an online business
does not have to be complicated or a guessing game. If you’re struggling in scaling your sales,
Electric Eye is here to help. To apply to work with us, visit electriceye.io/connect
to learn more. And let’s get on with the show. This episode of Honest eCommerce we talked
to Nathan Hirsch, the CEO of Freeeup.com, a marketplace that connects businesses with
pre-vetted freelancers in eCommerce, digital marketing and much more. Welcome back, everybody to another episode
of Honest eCommerce. I’m sitting here next to the wonderful Annette Grant and today we
are welcoming to the show, Nathan Hirsch from Freeeup. Nathan is going to teach us about
hiring and scaling with remote freelancers. So Nathan, how do you know so much about that? Yeah, first of all, thanks for having me.
I mean, I started hiring at a very young age. I started a multimillion-dollar Amazon business
out of my college dorm room. And one thing that they don’t teach you in
school, It’s how to hire people and how to manage people and I really got thrown into
it. My business was booming. I was getting crushed. I was working 20 hours a day trying
to get all this stuff done. And one day I realized, I just had to start hiring. There
were no other options. So I started hiring people. I had a lot of
great experiences, a lot of poor experiences. I actually ended up opening up an office and
shutting that down and going back to remote and eventually building my own marketplace
based on my own good and bad experiences from the Upworks and the Fiverrs out there. So I’ve hired hundreds, if not thousands of
freelancers. And that’s a lot of what I do on a day to day basis: Helping people make
great hires. I can’t tell you, as a small business owner,
how much that’s a pain point. We are constantly hiring and firing. That’s something I learned.
It was in a book and I have read too many now, so I finally forget what they’re called.
But um, (laughs), it was essentially… You gotta fire faster than you’re hiring. So you
got to make sure that you can. It’s a business decision. Unfortunately, these are people
you like, but your business’s finances are directly tied to that person’s performance. Yeah, a lot of business owners don’t realize
that hiring is the difference between success and failure. There can be really good business
ideas, really good business owners that can’t get to that next level or fail because they
make bad hires and vice versa. There are some average, so-so ideas that accelerate because
they put the right people in place to help get to the next level. Nathan, who was your first freelance hire,
remote freelance hire? Do you remember? So my first hire… It’s funny. I posted a
job on Facebook because I was 20. I was 21. I didn’t really know what I was doing, posted
a job. This guy in my business blog class messages me and says, “Hey, I’m looking for
a job. I don’t really know what you do, but willing to do whatever it takes that I need
to make some money.” So I didn’t really even interview him. I had
a quick conversation. I really needed someone. Hired him right off the bat. And right before
his first shift with me, I get a call from him saying, “Oh, by the way, I don’t have
a car. Can you come pick me up?” (laughs) So I drive 10 minutes. I go pick them up.
I bring them back. It’s kind of a hassle. But he crushes it for me. He’s doing all the
nitty-gritty work that I don’t want to do. He’s learning fast. He’s excited. He’s passionate.
It was the first time that someone else was as passionate about the business as I was. And every day on the way home that I would
drive him back to his dorm. We were just talking business and talk about, “Hey, how can we
improve? How can we get better?” His name is Connor and he’s actually my business partner
today on both my Amazon business and Freeeup. I got really lucky with my first hire, and
I proceeded to make a lot of bad hires right after that. But I hit gold right from the
beginning. I saw the end to that story. I did not. I didn’t even mean to ask that
question. I’m just terrible to watch movies with. (laughs) I’m like, “This is about to happen guys” Exactly. That’s amazing. That’s so awesome. So he’s still your business
partner to this day? Your first Freelancer? Did he ever get a car? (laughs) Yes. Does Connor have a car? (laughs) (laughs) He did get a car. He used that money
to buy a car and eventually I didn’t have to drive him back and forth anymore. (laughs) Oh, that’s a great story. That’s amazing. So let’s dabble into what
were you selling out of your dorm room. Yeah, so I started off with textbooks. I had
made a little bit of money during summer jobs, and I saved it up. And at the end of every
semester, I would buy people’s books back. And I would compete against the school bookstore.
I created a little referral program so people would tell their friends. And before I knew it, I had lines out the
door of people trying to sell me their books, to the point where I actually got a cease
and desist letter from my college to knock it off because I was taking up too much of
their business. So, I kind of realized that books were a nice
little moneymaker. But it wasn’t my long term future. I was going to graduate at some point.
I also thought we’d all be on tablets by now, which hasn’t really happened. But I started to just experiment with Amazon.
This website that no one knew anything about, besides it was a big bookstore that was just
getting into other things. This was back in 2008. There were no courses. There are no
gurus out there. No one really knew what Amazon was. So I started experimenting with really cool
stuff that I was familiar with. Sporting equipment, DVDs, computers, typical college guy stuff
and I just failed over and over and over. And the only thing I get to sell were these
books. And I was pretty frustrated. And one day I came across this deal for this
baby product. And I kind of jokingly listed on Amazon. And right away, I got five sales.
And I came up with this concept of dropshipping, years before I knew it was even called dropshipping;
Where I could build relationships with retailers, manufacturers, distributors, that would ship
products for me, because I didn’t have any place to store them. And I would make the
difference between what I sold it for and bought it from. And I hit the jackpot with
these baby products. So all day, (laughs) when I was in the back
of the class, I was just listing baby products for eight hours a day people thought I was
crazy. And that’s how my Amazon business exploded. I was selling millions of dollars worth of
baby products and toys. So you did not have an actual eCommerce site,
a domain name that you own that you sold your product from. It was all through Amazon in
the beginning? All through Amazon. Now does that business still exist? We actually shut it down in January of last
year. A lot of reasons. I mean, we were doubling every year for the first five-plus years and
we stopped doubling. The courses, the gurus, they came out there and Amazon became stricter.
And we weren’t really growing our brand, we were kind of just running in circles. And
we were making money, but we weren’t passionate about it. We were never really passionate about selling
baby products. We were passionate about growing the business and scaling it. And once that
stopped, there wasn’t that much passion rolling around. So with Freeeup when we launched that on the
side, that took off really quickly. I mean, we’re still growing rapidly. It was kind of
a different experience. Where on Amazon, you’re kind of secluded, you’re dealing with your
own team and your manufacturers and you don’t want to tell anyone what your products are. With Freeeup, I got to go on podcasts with
you guys and speak at conferences and grow our brand and have our own website that we
drive traffic to. Once that started to take off, we wanted to focus all our energy on
that. So we let go of the Amazon business. Yeah, you actually hit on a gem in there and
that is with Amazon and the Etsys and the eBay’s, it is a highly competitive marketplace
and they make the rules and they own that customer relationship. So if you’re not building
a brand like you said, it can stall out and even start to just go downhill rapidly. I
have actually known people that have lost their cash cow products on Amazon because
Amazon entered the market with Amazon plus or whatever their… Basics. …products are. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Happens all the time. That’s the new
thing going around in the eCommerce world. Focus on your brand. Don’t be reliant on one
source and definitely don’t be relying on Amazon long-term. And I think for Freeeup, you changed into,
“How can we serve our customer?” Before, you’re kind of just selling them products and it
sounds like use switched your focus to serving your customer. And now that’s where you’re
seeing that excitement, you and your partner. That’s very cool. Yeah, it’s a lot of fun for us. It’s a lot
different than just selling a product to an end consumer. I mean, we’re dealing with businesses.
I’m both the client-side and the freelancer-side. We get to help people achieve their dreams
and their goals and scale. On the flip side, provide for their families. And when I was in the Philippines, people
were showing me their cars and their houses that they were able to buy from Freeeup. So
it’s been a very rewarding experience and much different than the eCommerce atmosphere. Absolutely. So let’s get into it. Like, when
should I hire somebody? I’m a small business. We are selling a couple of grand a month of
baby products. But we have a brand. We’re doing it right. When should I hire somebody? I like to hire people early and what I try
to do is I split it up into three levels. So you got basic level freelancers that are
$5-$10 an hour when you think of outsourcing. And they have years of experience, but they’re
really followers. They’re there to follow your systems, your processes, and I like to
hire these types of people, once I find myself doing things that are below my hourly rate,
so to speak. So if I’m starting a business, my hourly rate
is pretty much nothing. You’re not making any money, you have to do everything. But
as you start making more and more money, your hourly rate goes up and up. And if you’re
worth $100 an hour, and you’re constantly doing $5, $10, $20 an hour tasks, you need
to hire some followers to come in and take those processes and those systems off your
plate, so that you can focus on sales, expansion, marketing, all the big picture stuff. The flip side of it is the mid-level and the
expert level. So the mid-level are more specialists more project-based. Graphic designers, writers,
bookkeepers. And the experts are the consultants, the people
who can execute high-level game plans that can project manage. All the high-level stuff,
maybe outside of your core competency. So as a business owner, I try to focus on
what am I good at and where am I spending my time that I’m not good at? What are my
weaknesses? And I want to turn those weaknesses into strengths to the best of my ability,
whatever I can afford. So that’s really how I look at it. It’s very
tough to say, “Oh, you need to hire at this point right now, or you’re going to mess up.”
It’s more along the lines of, “When do you get stuck doing the stuff that’s below your
pay grade?” And “When are you doing too much?” “Are you spreading yourself too thin outside
of your core competence?” Does that make sense? Yes. Oh, it makes complete sense to me. I have
been a large proponent of systems and delegation. Or and then… I think that from day one,
we’ve had a VA here and now she’s up to 40 hours a month. Now I have a copywriter. The
tasks that I shouldn’t be doing… No one else can replace me on the podcast. You guys
would miss my voice. (laughs) I think, that there’s a lot of stuff that
I was doing when we first started the business. When the marketing and the sales department
that I’ve now systematized and delegated and even terminated some of that stuff. Another key point is, sometimes you don’t
need to be doing stuff just at all. You can just stop doing it and your business will
survive. And that’s something that you got to think about. Some of these, you gotta focus
on. Especially in marketing, you got to focus on exactly what’s actually going to move the
needle for you. You can’t do everything at once. Yeah, I mean, we all run out of hours in a
week, right? You can work 50/60/70 and there’s always more stuff to do. And then there’s
also the personal preference of how do you want to run your business? Do you want to
be hustling all the time? Do you want more of that lifestyle, where you get more time
with friends and family? Where are you in terms of your own financial stability? And
a lot of those decisions come into when you’re going to hire and who are you gonna hire. So going back to the hiring. Obviously, if
you’re hiring a freelancer, what are some of the… I’m sure you have some warnings
for us. What are the tips, like red flags when you’re hiring? Either A – putting too
much on their plate? Or you know, when you’re interviewing, making sure that you’re finding
the right person.What are some of your best practices? I’m sure you can kind of fire some
of those off to us. Yeah, so my biggest thing is I set expectations
upfront and I overdo it. Now, I’ll ask someone three times “Hey, are you sure you can work
this time zone? Hey, are you sure that you have the background for this? Are you sure
that you can handle this workload, whatever it is?” And I really try to lay out those
expectations, not just of the work, but also what it’s like to work with me. Because these freelancers, they work with
a lot of different clients and you are unique as a business owner. I’m sure people are some
people will say I’m pretty tough to work with. I talk fast. I move fast. I have high expectations.
If you can’t handle direct feedback, if you’re a warm and fuzzy person or you can’t move
at my speed, I’m probably not the best person to work with. So I lay out those expectations
and I give the person a chance to back out. Scare probably isn’t the right word. But for
lack of a better one, I almost scare them a little bit because I only want them to commit,
if they can 100% do it. And then from there in that first one week, two week, three week,
I hold them to those expectations. If they’re showing up late for meetings, or if they are
missing due dates, or if they’re taking my direct criticism personally, those are the
type of people I try to avoid based on my past experience. So I’ll be quick to make moves and that’s
a lot where that fire fast comes in. Once you’ve invested a lot of, not just money,
but time into someone it becomes a much harder decision. But what I try to do is to lay those
expectations upfront and figure out if someone is a good fit in that first week or two. Absolutely. Simplr Ad
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Christmas. It’s January while we’re recording this and it was not gonna come out till March
because I somehow found 14 people really fast that wanted to be on this thing. But anyway,
I digress. We came to that Freelancer with a two-page brief on exactly what we wanted
for our blog articles. We actually hired four people, and we hired them all. Asked them
all. Set deadlines. We followed such a stringent hiring process
and set all those expectations up front and one of them stood out and we’re still working
with them to this day. So I can just agree wholeheartedly. You have to almost over-educate
and lay out… You might think it’s something simple and
you don’t need to write it down. It can be overlooked. That’s what’s going to separate
that from being a good hire from a bad hire. The onus is on you as the hiring party, not
sharing all those details. Yeah, there’s a lot of assumptions that go
on. Clients, –I see it all the time– they leave out a huge chunk of what they needed
because they almost assume the freelancer will know. And to be fair from the freelancer
side, again repeating my point from before, they work with a lot of different clients.
What’s good for one client is bad for another. What one client likes is another client’s
pet peeve. If you don’t establish that upfront, it’s gonna be really hard to get on the same
page right from the beginning. Yeah, Someone shared with me something the
other day and it was like it was a brief. They were trying to… Someone was trying
to hire another agency and they said, “I was sick of wasting money. And that’s why I came
to you.” And that phrase stuck out to me. I was like, “When I waste money… We go
down rabbit holes sometimes where we’re doing the wrong thing.” But 99% of the time, it’s
because I didn’t do the work upfront to really outline what that project should look like. Yeah, and there are times where… And we
encourage… So we have the terms of use to our platform, but we also have best practices.
And we don’t enforce them. But they’re there to really help the freelancers and one thing
we’ll do is we’ll say, “Hey, go out of your way to get more information. Ask questions.
Really define it. Don’t start a project until you have all the
information you need on exactly what the client wants, because you don’t want it to turn into
he said/she said down the line or X was assumed. Whatever it is. ” Even getting really specific.
It’s not “due next Tuesday”, it’s “due next Tuesday, 2 pm Eastern Time.” Things like that
save you a lot of time and money from both sides. Absolutely. The timezone thing on due dates,
that’s so crucial. Yes. Alright. So now that we’re getting into it… So now we’re moving
along we’re a little further along in our business. When do you start delegating some
of that more important stuff off your plate? Some of those things that you owned as an
owner. Maybe your expertise for the business. This is more pivoting from like, a lifestyle
business now and almost a business. Do you have any advice there on scaling up? Because
I’m sure there are some things that you have delegated off your plate in the last year
with doing Freeeup that you never thought that you wouldn’t be in control of. Yeah, I like to focus on low risk/high reward
situations. Especially as a startup, someone who’s never gotten funding before. Reinvesting
the company’s revenues and profits back into it. I like to try different things and this
is part of the fun of hiring. So I’ll hire someone, for example, to run my Instagram
or run Twitter for a few months. It costs a few hundred dollars every month and nothing
too crazy. And what’s the worst-case scenario? I lose
$600-$1,000? Yes, it sucks, but it’s not the end of the world, I’m not going homeless.
And what’s the best-case scenario, they crush it, they do a way better job than I can. Leads
are coming in. And that’s what happened with both agencies that I hired to run these platforms. So if you’re constantly looking for low risk/high
reward situations, whether it’s hiring a lead generation team or someone for social media,
or Facebook ads. Things that are not working, you can pull back on and invest in other things.
Things that are working, you could put more money and more time into. So that’s really how I look at it. It’s really
tough. You see, the gurus out there and the course owners saying, “You have to do this.
Succeed in your business.” and every business is different. What works for one business
doesn’t work for another. So there’s really no substitute for that trial
and error approach because you might come across something like LinkedIn, that is just
crushing it. That’s doing way better than Facebook ads when another business for whatever
reason, has had a ton of success with Facebook ads. Now that’s great. I think we should tell our
audience, –we had a little chat before we even started the call– that Nathan, his whole
entire business, is based on freelancers to this day correct? All of Freeeup? Yeah. We’re entirely remote. We have no office.
All of our day to day operations, our billing, our customer service, my virtual assistants,
lead generation is all outsourced to the Philippines. All the higher-level stuff Our Facebook ads,
our blog, our SEO are US freelancers. Both are available on the platform for other
people to hire. And then we have agencies that we use for different social media and
stuff like that. So, we really practice what we preach. We only hire people within the
Freeeup platform and everyone’s remote. So let’s talk about the Freeeup platform.
I have to admit I’ve never used Freeup I have used Upwork and Fiverr. So, can you explain
to me and our audience what makes Freeeup different from the other hiring platforms? Yeah. I used all the other platforms and I
had some good experiences. Some bad ones. But what I really didn’t like is I would post
a job, get 50 people to apply, interview them one by one. Took forever. If I found someone
I liked, they ended up quitting on me. I was right back where I started interviewing all
these people again. So, I came up with the idea of Freeeup, where
we get thousands of applicants every week. Virtual assistants, freelancers, agencies,
from all over the world. We vet them for skill, attitude, communication. Let the top 1% in
and then make them available to clients quickly, whenever they need them. It’s free to sign
up. There’s no monthly fee, no minimums, no obligation. It’s in our best interest to get
people, freelancers they actually like that help them grow their business. On the back end, customer service is incredibly
important to me. We have 24/7 support. I’m pretty easy to contact. I have assistants
that cover my Skype, email, live chat all the time. So if you have even the smallest
need, issue, question, whatever it is, they’re there. And then lastly, we have no turnover guaranteed.
Because we know how frustrating it is to have someone you like, quit. Freelancers on our
platform rarely quit. It is real life. It can happen. If it does, we cover replacement
costs and get you a new person right away. So, that’s really how we differentiate ourselves.
The pre-vetting, the speed, the customer service, and the protection. And are all of your freelancers… I know
some of them are US and International with the other sites. Where are all of your freelancers
on your platform? Where are they from? So we’re about 40% US, 40% Philippines and
20% scattered around the world. Alright, so I have an eCommerce store and
I’m selling these baby parts… (laughs) Baby… Not baby parts. (laughs) (laughs) Oh wow. Okay. So… (laughs) Baby toys… (laughs) I don’t know where I
was going with that with the baby… Anyway. I digress. We’re not selling baby parts but
we’re selling baby toys. Anyways, what are some common things that you see small eCommerce
store owners, outsourcing through your platform? Yeah. On the basic level side, you’ve got
the customer service, order fulfillment, maybe bookkeeping or data entry or sourcing work.
On the mid-level side, you’ve got listing products, you’ve got graphic design, you’ve
got building websites, listings. And then on the top-level, maybe you have marketing
experts or Shopify experts or Amazon experts you can hire to order your store and optimize
listings. PPC across all platforms, whether it’s Google, Facebook, Amazon, and just overall
business experts that can come in and help identify different ways to improve. So, it
definitely depends on what level you’re looking for. But we have over 100 skill sets on the
platform to pick from. And when you see eCom businesses coming to
Freeeup and start hiring, do you notice –once they kind of get a taste for the freelancer
and having someone help them– that there’s an uptick pretty quick of them wanting to
hire more and outsource more? Yeah. It’s that a common theme. This isn’t really a Freeeup thing. It’s more
of a life thing. Right. Making bad hires turns you away and it makes
you never want to hire anyone and do it all yourself. And making good hires is addicting
and it makes you want to do it more. And it helps you take your business to the next level
and have more fun. We tried it. I can’t tell you how many clients… They
come to us and say, “Hey, I’ve sworn off virtual assistants. I’m never gonna hire. I’m never
gonna outsource.” And then a week later they say, “Hey, this is awesome. Here the next
three things I need.” So besides vetting that the correct freelancer,
are there any tools that you use in your business that our listeners might want to use when
they’re outsourcing, that you use on a daily basis? Yeah. So, I really try to practice what I
preach and one of the things I preach is simplicity. I work with 40 plus freelancers, virtual assistants,
and I keep it pretty simple. I use Skype and email for communication. I use Trello for
projects. I use JIRA for developers. And that’s really it. And you can run a very effective
business, using those tools that are all free. And I have plenty of clients that are way
more successful than I am that use a lot of other crazy stuff. Slack, Asana, and all those
things but you don’t have to do it. And definitely, if you’re only using a few people here and
there, don’t feel like you have to get every tracking tool out there. A lot of times it
is very unnecessary. Yeah, we actually just made the decision to
almost terminate a third of the apps that we were using. Maybe they’re a little more
efficient in one thing, but having 19 logins just makes it not worthwhile. But I think
I do have a tip for you. I’ve found that with my outsourcing, ever
since I discovered Loom, I could walk my freelancers through exactly what I wanted and talk about
it and show them on the screen. And that has increased my success rate with hiring. It’s
unreal. Well, tell our listeners what Loom is. Oh yeah. Loom, it’s a free Google Chrome plugin.
You click a button and it’s recording your screen. You can talk to your computer. And
then when you’re done recording, it’s instantly on their server. And you can share that link
with your Freelancer or your web team if you found a bug on your website. I mean there’s
a million uses for it. But yeah, it’s probably my favorite plugin I found in quite a while. Yeah, I love it. My thing on videos… Because
I’m a startup, I’m constantly trying to improve systems, improve processes. I almost try to
not make videos unless I’m sure that that process is concrete which almost none of my
processes are concrete. We’re always trying to improve them. Make them better. I tend
to stick with documents but like I said, I’ve lots of clients who do differently that have
a lot of success. You just hit on gold. I don’t think the process
is ever complete. (laughs) You can always improve it. You can always make it more efficient.
I find me having that conversation with my project manager and my business partner here.
I was like, “Do you guys understand that we’re always going to make changes to these things.
Right?” Yeah, I mean, that’s kind of a mentality that
I get people that work with me in. With the line they say is, “This isn’t the way it is
because I said so. Because Nate said so.” This is what we’ve come up with so far. Now
let’s work together to make everything better and come in every day trying to come up with
ideas and improvements and feedback. Some of the best ideas that have saved me the most
money or cut the most costs have come from other people because I’ve created that kind
of environment. I have one important question that I think
our listeners would be interested in, once you hire the freelancer, the payment, is that
happening through Freeeup or is that happening just between the freelancer and the hirer? Yeah, just like other marketplaces, the payments
are through us. So our billing period is Wednesday to Tuesday. We charge you every Thursday.
You can pause and unpause freelancers. You can set weekly limits. And you have a week
to dispute anything, before we pay the freelancer the next Thursday. The freelancer set their
own rates. You can negotiate it, you can agree to fixed prices, but it follows that billing
period. Awesome. And I heard that you have an awesome
deal that you want to share with our listeners. Yeah, so anyone that signs up… –First of
all, my calendar is right at the top of the website. If you ever want to book a call and
talk about your business, mentioned this podcast and get a $50 credit applied to your account
and try us out. And yeah, we look forward to helping a lot of listeners out there with
their hiring needs. Absolutely. And I think we’re going to convince
them to make a coupon code that will put in the show notes HONESTECOMMERCE50. But yeah,
Nathan, is there anything else that you’d want to share with our audience? You’ve been
absolutely wonderful. Yeah. Where can our listeners find you? Yeah, check us out. Online Hiring Mastermind
on Facebook. You can add me on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, as well. I’m pretty easy
to contact and active on social media. I guess my last piece of advice is just to diversify
your hire. A lot of people fall into the trap. Hiring is hard. You make a lot of bad hires
and you finally find someone you like. So what do you do? You load them up with everything.
While, all of a sudden, your business became a lot more risky. If that person quits, it can take you months
to replace them and really set your business back. You don’t have to go overboard. You
don’t have to hire 5 customer service reps to handle 5 emails a day. But make sure as
you’re hiring, you’re not putting all your eggs in one basket. That’s fantastic. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me guys. Thank you. We can’t thank our guests enough for coming
on the show and sharing the truth. Links and more will be available in the show notes.
If you found any actionable advice in this podcast that you’d like to apply to your business,
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