January 27, 2020
Dragonproof Podcast Episode 2 – John Lawson

Dragonproof Podcast Episode 2 – John Lawson

welcome to another edition of the dragon
proof ecommerce podcast i am richard otay this is Rick Wilson hello everybody
and John Lawson Cheers we’re excited to have John on the show
today Rick and I both known John for quite a few years and he is another
ecommerce author his book is kick-ass social commerce for eat manures and John
I mean we’ve known you for so long I don’t even know really where to get
started why don’t you give people a little bit of background and why you’re
why we have you on the show today um you know what I don’t really tell my story
enough and I was like in a coaching class and they were like coaching you on
story and I don’t know so I’m gonna tell you a little story but basically in 2001
I have purchased a house and I was gonna flip this house and make a whole bunch
of money and unfortunately that did not happen
I ended up with a second mortgage and I was working a regular nine-to-five and
literally about to go bankrupt I filled out the bankruptcy paperwork
and was going to file it but I had a vacation to take nothing that great you
going on a vacation just before you go back around but I pay for the mix
another way so I paid for the vacation the year before and now it was time to
go and I was just I was pretty depressed but a friend of mine had told me you
could sell stuff on eBay and I was like okay whatever and I put some stuff up on
eBay while I was on vacation its salt and I just was like whoa that’s pretty
cool and I just kind of kept myself afloat for a few months with the second
mortgage and kept myself out of bankruptcy court and after I kind of
sold out of the things around my house I started looking for other things to sell
long story short I started out doing you know retail arbitrage which is of course
a format of e-commerce that didn’t have a name when I started because I was
doing it with the Sunday morning papers and for
people listening today explain what retail arbitrage is I’m not sure
everyone knows that yeah I mean it’s like there are things that are on
clearance or retards things like that that are deeply discounted and you can
go to a retail store buy it from that retail store listed on places like eBay
Amazon even if your own website and flip it and make some money so that’s the
arbitrage part and the retail of course because it came from retail stores so I
used to do that ultimately I moved up moved up in terms of you know taking
that money putting it in back into the business until one day I was like you
know what if I stopped working on the plantation for eight hours a day and
took that same eight hours and added on to the four to six hours that I was
doing you know on the side also I think I can make it work and you know ended up
leaving my job in 2004 and Here I am today so so you you come from a slightly
different place than we talked about here on dragon proof most the time
Ricker’s of the mindset more build around your own your own brand your own
business on your own site but you come more from a market place what other than
that’s where you got started and to give us a little bit of a background on you
know why you think people should be selling on marketplaces I don’t you know
I don’t think people should be selling on marketplaces that’s almost like
saying that people that were born in Mexico should speak English right that’s
that’s ridiculous it’s like that’s a second language and once you are born in
Mexico speaking Spanish you have to translate everything in English it
mentally it kind of you know you don’t really you still think and dream
probably in Spanish I don’t know read I’m sure if I do a second language I’d
still dream one way right I know trust me I’m going somewhere with snow when
Rick first asked me to come in to you know the conference I didn’t know what I
was getting into I was like okay makan I get it they make
stores but as I start talking to the people I realize that they spoke a whole
different language they thought completely different than I did and all
of a sudden I realized both worlds have their own value you know somebody that
speaks Spanish is not better than somebody speaking English or vice versa
that is just a the the world you were invite your environment you were raised
in and so they were very comfortable with driving their own traffic they
understood that at an intrinsic level and I didn’t understand that because
I’ve been paying market place’s 15-20 percent of my income to drive traffic
for me so there is a there different business models but I you know I’m
comfortable with whichever one you determine would work best for what
you’re trying to do okay that makes sense it’s funny I’ll take a different
analogy but some people say cap the California is super expensive but I’m
born and raised here right but since I’m born and raised here I don’t feel like
California is just expensive as much as I feel everywhere else is really cheap
sure or inexpensive right so okay so you’re basically saying it’s that was
your experience growing up yeah right your experience growing up was I came up
via marketplaces I understood marketplaces so you’re not necessarily
saying people should use them but what would be a reason people who would want
to how about that definitely if you’re not comfortable with marketing asking
people for money driving your own traffic I think there is some sense of a
faster it’s almost a shortcut but you’re paying more for the shortcut right so I
think yes it’s very easy to take something that’s off your shelf in your
home and list that on eBay or Amazon if it’s already selling you know so I think
that’s really great for getting your feet wet but when you’re talking about
the whole world of e-commerce I think there is a whole lot of value and
learning how to drive your own traffic it helps you know yeah cuz I mean like
the marketplaces can take away your business otherwise yeah but see that now
we didn’t want a yes-man I’ll go into it and that’s what a lot of people will say
yeah yeah but Google has taking people’s traffic away in oh sure of course yeah
that’s real too so it’s like it’s like you’re paying the money to somebody to
advertise your product well there’s always a Vig right there’s always yeah
so you’re from the opposite side of the spectrum yeah my you know my background
really started selling ecommerce software to existing businesses before
the marketplaces had taken hold I mean Amazon was a website selling
books at the time it was a big news that they expanded a DVDs you couldn’t list
your own products on Amazon you couldn’t pay you back on SKUs eBay you may it was
the big thing but he made back then was selling stuff usually secondhand stuff
it was like the world’s garage sale and it was cool you know I certainly have
sold plenty of stuff on eBay everyone’s all I still do just you know it’s got a
little harder these things get scale and we’ll talk
about this in a little bit I’m sure these things get scale and there’s some
issues that pop up with with the seller community but um you know I came from
the world of people who had existing businesses often brick and mortar but
existing products and businesses and they wanted to expand online sometimes
that early world was also people who came from an industry and they had a
they were good sourcers which we’ll want to talk about here in a second they were
good sourcers and they decided to try to just you know use SEO to get to the
top you know so on motorcycle helmets or whatever they didn’t necessarily have a
big brand before that but but they were trying to be first movers so my world
really came from people who started with an independent website and marketplaces
were kind of secondary in fact it wasn’t trying to think when we finally added we
did a first because ironically as big as Amazon is now we had an eBay to me the
merchants I want to say eight or nine years ago
Amazon’s API is there was you couldn’t even test them
you know like you could sort of do it but but to make an automated tool to
take to connect your store to Amazon was near impossible those things have
matured somewhat but it was we came at it John and I came at this world from
almost the exact opposite ends of the spectrum
yeah yeah and it was a growing world at the time yeah almost Ilya is in some
ways but it was so it was it was very much in its infancy yeah yeah online
payments so you you kind of alluded to it in the last couple questions there
but if we were to say or we were to ask you what do you think marketplaces are
doing right right now what would what would your opinion be on that what a
marketplace is doing right hmm other than everything you know, they can’t be
doing everything right so I know I can ask you what their doing wrong and you have
answers true but and as far as marketplaces themselves are doing a lot
right because they’re taking a huge swath of share of online purchasing you
know and they’re driving the conversation now and what I think if you
would maybe gone back maybe ten years ago it would kind of be the opposite you
know we would be talking about what Macy’s is doing JC Penney’s is doing and
that would be the industry-leading stuff and now all we talk about pretty much is
what Amazon is doing so yeah I mean they’re they’re they’re driving the
conversation that’s for sure and I’d actually love to hear your opinion too
Rick because even though you come from the other side like I know you know
there’s some things they’re doing right oh sure I mean yeah and anyone who’s
listening to podcasts or read the book or heard me speak I am I’m not anti
marketplace you know I think you should leverage those marketplaces I have a
theory about how you should leverage you you should leverage those marketplaces
you know Amazon is 50% of online retail both direct so that’s their own stuff
plus their marketplace combined of publicly traded e-commerce companies
where I said that counts the Macy’s and the apples and and all that stuff and
there are about thirty five percent of total estimated e-commerce in North
America so add them and eBay together let’s call
them mark the two dominant marketplaces are taking half this doesn’t count
things like Instagram or Google shopping which are really marketplaces isn’t more
ad engines right where marketplaces truly are..the difference between a marketplace and an ad is the checkout funnel right an ad leads you back to your
website Instagram, Google Shopping, Bing shopping Pinterest right all those
things leads you back to your website you own the customer you’ve paid you
know you’ve paid the you’ve paid the marketer you’ve paid the guy out on the
street to hand out your flier to someone coming to your restaurant right where
the market place is actually selling your food for you right like mark you
know think about it like when I post mate something even though I know what
restaurant I’m picking I pay post mates postman’s brings me my food post mates
is like a marketplace for food so a 50% of e-commerce sales in the US not
counting services like that run through marketplaces and I do think they drive a
lot of the conversation because they they’re get they get the media attention
media likes to focus on the big thing and I believe you should be if you can
do both that’s the winning strategy if you can leverage your marketplace
profitably and have an independent website you get extra profit you can
control your destiny you can have a better customer experience but John let
me ask you this we’ve talked about this a little bit yesterday on the prep time
what’s the one thing Amazon really sucks at what’s the one thing Amazon really
sucks at, what did I say? product discovery you don’t go browse on Amazon yeah yeah
absolutely I mean by the time and and that’s what they suck at and also that’s
what they’re good at I guess is that by the time you get to Amazon you already
know what you want to purchase you’re not going to Amazon to just
browse today and see what’s available that’s rare that people are doing that
by the time they get there they’re ready to make purchases yep and that’s their
value and also what they kind of suck at the shopping experience on Amazon in my
opinion sucks it absolutely sucks but the delivery is great you know yeah it’s
all about the logistics and they really are there they’re a checkout and
logistics platform yeah and they streamline that very
well yep and that has given them market leader position in my opinion but also
you know kind of back to what you said on the last part was I wanted to make a
point that even though yes Amazon sucks a lot of wind because it it is the big
thing that press talks about but it’s also still it’s training customers and
we’re we have to just keep up with whatever they’re doing at least in you
know delivery and execution just to stay in the game as third party you know or
not third party as first party platforms so even if you’ve got your own webstore
you still have to be concerned about one day a two day shipping now yeah because
of Amazon training other people that buy online on what the experienced quote
should be not just one and two days shipping free one or two days three one
or two day shipping yeah people want their stuff fast and they want easy
returns so yeah and who started it Amazon know who Zappos oh yeah that’s
right with the shoes yes okay we’re trying to solve the try on problem
exactly and that’s what everybody kind of forgets you know is that a lot of
what Amazon learned they purchased because Zappos was kicking their ass on
shoes yep and and you know and it’s like look we can’t beat these guys let’s
bring them in and not only did they bring them in they let them bring their
culture and they learn from it that’s the valuable stuff when it comes to
acquisitions I mean I love what Amazon does with their acquisitions it’s a
learning opportunity for them versus like eBay who has acquired many things
and just suck the wind out of everything eBay has a unique ability to mostly destroy
something and then resell absolutely like look guys remember they own that
they own Skype yeah they bought a lot of stuff huh supposedly they’re about to
divest StubHub who knows we’ll see yeah but that’s it that’s good but one of the
things we were talking about that I wanted to ask you about here was and
this isn’t any either eBay or Amazon small but there’s also other problems
that start happening when you have lots of sellers competing
cuz what happens when you have multiple sellers is you get some shady seller
behavior you get shady seller behavior because it’s always a race to the bottom
yep right yeah and so what did you see in
that on eBay like how did you see that coming and how have you seen that played
out on eBay how much do you see that hitting Amazon now so let’s think about
eBay’s business model and how it changed from being an auction platform like you
said before and the you know the second-hand store to trying to be a yeah
whatever it is today I don’t know exactly what eBay really wants to be
when it grows up but the deal was that you could get disability because your
auction was about to end so you would get to the top of the listing platform
based on time ending soonest right and that would give your product some
visibility today not so much because they kind of tried to model what Amazon
is you have a buy box and I think that alone gets to the race to the bottom
it’s like we’re going to give the person that has the lowest price and you know
some level of serviceability the top spot but back in the day eBay would let
everybody have the top spot and the customer was allowed to determine which
person was going to buy from it because because you would see everybody that was selling
the same product on Amazon you don’t see everybody you have to press two buttons
to get to everybody yeah and their lists to everybody is like a weird grid
it’s a weird grid and it’s it’s it’s you know because here’s a deal Amazon I
don’t know how I should put this but Amazon is not Amazon doesn’t really sell
products people think Amazon competes with you because it sells products
Amazon really competes with you because it sells Prime and so it’s not just
putting up the lowest price product it puts up the lowest price prime product
you know or put some the lowest price Amazon made pride
product they have so many levers they’re able to pull at different stages and
phases it again that you totally confused I can lower my price by 20% and
still not win the buy box what’s happening there right well one of the
things I want to ask you about you know we were talking with this yesterday you
you mentioned one of the things about being good selling online as being a
good sorcerer let’s talk about that for a second that’s when we talking about on
marketplaces yep right so a lot of people are I would argue you need that
anywhere if you do need that any and that’s a skill you have to you do have
to have that I get that but I mean you know there’s there are legacy businesses
that have been with the same manufacturer for years oh sure right
yeah you have distribution rights or whatever that’s you know those are rarer
but that’s yes in ecommerce and marketplaces is a whole nother ballgame
so we have a lot of people that are building these and I’m doing air quotes
guys businesses and it’s like I’ve got an ecommerce business and I’m I’m like
you know what I want to wake you up a little bit your ecommerce business
really is to find products for eBay I mean for Amazon you know you are a and a
glorified Amazon independent shopper right because as soon as some buy buyer
really buy oh yeah yeah yeah you know so you are out there doing all
the manual labor so they don’t have to have a sales team running through
conferences all the time trying to find new product to sell they let third
parties do that and that is your business and if you don’t understand
that part then you have or you run the risk of being shocked and surprised when
somebody else comes into the marketplace happens to go through the same show that
you did and will undercut you for that product on that same price or nowadays
someone in China actually works the real factory well ship straight from China
let me just tell you Amazon did a show I don’t think they did it this year but
last year they did a show in New Orleans first for sellers that seller show was
3,000 people third-party sellers from the US that went to that show it was hot
as Hades because the air broke down on there yeah that’s a year
three months for four months later they did want to China and 10,000 sellers
showed up wow that just lets you know what’s happening and if I’m looking at
that from an Amazon perspective I’m like okay and I’ll tell you honestly this
China thing right now is actually helping Amazon we talking about the
tariffs? Tariffs are helping Amazon why because why do you think Amazon has
their own planes yeah sure they need to move stuff from LA to Kentucky I get
that but more than anything they want to move that stuff from China to here and
cut all the third-party guys out so that you know I was just on a panel last week
I’m going on but also you’re going on last week in the UK and I’m sitting
there and the UK leader of whatever for Amazon sitting there she’s a lovely lady
and I didn’t want to beat up on her you know and she’s talking about oh I love
the customers and we love the customers and I was like excuse me I’m your
customer too you don’t love me that much right I’m
the seller Amazon has more than one customer and trust me when it comes to
hey can we go directly to manufacturers take that stuff palette by pallet and
bring it over here put it in our warehouse and never have to deal with
these crazy third-party sellers they get that oh absolutely I mean Amazon’s view
of the world they’ve never stated this but their view
of the world is there’s a person buying and they’re gonna deliver a product to
that person and they own everything in between and you’re correct if you’re a
buyer for Amazon it’s a job now you may be able to make that a job you like
right you may be able to make that it’s not a it’s not a guaranteed job you
don’t get health insurance but you might be able make a great living you work on
your hours Oh millions I know guys doing millions, tens of
millions and and I think this is where the dragonproof stuff comes in and kind
of the point of the book if you can get enough if you can get enough momentum
there then you want to start looking at how can you actually turn that from a
job into a business right and turning that from a job into a business
I believe requires having an independent website because that’s where you can
control product discovery you can release new products your
charge a margin you can what were the three things Richey it was getting more
people to by increasing average order value and getting excuse me and getting
them to come back let’s go back yep new customers get them to come back
increasing cart value and the Amazon and eBay only oh do one of those three which
is getting your new customers and they do those exceptionally well and it’s so
hard to do that that’s why they thrive yeah but you know what while you’re just
talking and think it made me want to change from business to or no change
from what do what did you say that most of these people don’t have I said they
have a job job it’s like a it’s a so instead of saying from a job to a
business the deal is I think it’s changing it from a job or business to a
company yeah and maybe that’s the right way yeah like like you’re not a company
yet mm-hmm so that being said you came up via
marketplaces but you have a lot of examples of how they got a what people
got to watch out via the marketplace so what would be something that you would describe as a way that
people could dragonproof themselves knowing all these goals of Amazon to
control one one-word brand so you gotta create a brand Amazon like I said is all
about matter of fact they’ve removed the name Amazon from the box yes you smile
no it’s prime oh this is prime now yeah yeah we’re looking right at what do that
baby think of it that’s the sticker look at the side of the box
people can’t see this who are watching at home it’s got the smile it’s just a
smile it’s like the Nike swoosh of no any comms
it does say Prime yes because here’s a deal I’m flying into where was I at
South Florida somewhere in Florida that’s what the plane say where the plane
stay and the planes say Prime with the smile on with a smile yeah and I’m
like all of a sudden then I look at the trucks they say that the vans stay
that Amazon is building a whole brand around Prime I have a theory about that
what’s that so my theory is this I think they’re
gonna keep the Amazon brand for purchasing yes that’s we go shop you go
shop at Amazon Prime is there UPS and FedEx competitor yeah they’re breaking
they’re already ready for being broken apart yeah and then I don’t know what
you’re gonna call prime video but that’s the thinking were the name for that is
anyone watch you know what people do watch it they’re deer winning awards
yeah I didn’t they want some Oscars today we’re not Oscars but the other one
Oh Emmys yeah they’ve want some Emmys and
they’re putting a lot of look Prime just throwing that in makes it more valuable
to some people it’s like a plus I get videos okay I can deal with that
you know I can watch my x-files now well that’s sure if you think about the fact
that we went from being willing to pay ninety or I guess it’s 119 a year now
for two days shipping to expecting free two-day shipping
now once you’ve created your own trap right because if I expect free two-day
shipping why am i paying 120 bucks to get free two-day shipping
oh but I’m also getting yeah a Netflix competitor and Thursday football let’s go back
to one of things though let’s talk about what happens when you get to scale and
marketplaces and you have you know the bad actions from sellers you know I mean
one of the things we’ve seen on Amazon is people doing
fake reviews to bring your site’s down people do counterfeit products and
fulfillment by Amazon how do you have what do you tell people about that stuff
you know I think it’s it’s part of the growth of the marketplace and we saw
this same thing happen with eBay right and it ended up really hurting eBay and
why it hurt eBay is because you end up having to put in these you know walls
and fences to make sure that the bad guys you start catching you know whales
in the tuna net you know you’re trying to get the bad guys out but you also
start hurting a lot of your big guys as well and I don’t know how they’re gonna
deal with it I thought eBay did a pretty poor job and that allowed a lot of
third-party sellers to say oh let me start looking at Amazon as an option and
now I’m starting to hear from the Amazon crowd as they’re starting to refocus and
look at eBay as an option as their stores are getting bad me because you
can’t Amazon it it’s hard once you get shut down or once you get some strikes
against you to continue on that platform you can’t have your store shut down
arbitrarily well I mean number one problem is you get in trouble even if
it’s not your fault and there’s no phone number to call
well there is a way if you pay five thousand dollars a month there’s a phone
you can talk to us but also at the same time what we’re dealing with which is
different than I’m just thinking about different than the eBay time is we’re
dealing with mother the computer see so even when you talk to somebody at Amazon
they will tell you I really don’t have the ability to make this change oh right
right because they’ll say okay and they’ll make the notation and six months
later it could happen to you again because the computer the AI here the
algorithm is shutting you off I am off so it’s this dude yeah you know
the eBay days there was somebody actually looking at this data yeah no
that’s true I mean the that in order for this stuff
to scale the algorithm has to make the decision yes because the algorithms
making the decisions people can game the decisions which is part of
my thesis that in the book and and all this stuff is that that’s why no one
company can take over more than say half of like in the retail right because
beyond that there are too many ways to game the system and therefore you drive
people to look for other alternatives so the other alternatives go back to eBay
or we were talking about this yesterday in our pre-interview stuff if we were
launching a new product today new product no one’s heard of right let’s
say a t-shirt that you can change by doing that right I’m rubbing on John’s
chest right now and I turned it says from I am something to a skull but uh
you’re launching a new t-shirt and no one’s ever seen this before how do you
share that information I know how I would do today I start with a short
video on Instagram or maybe you and out you and I haven’t talked about tick-tock
I don’t talk that much but those things are come and snap we’ll see what happens
a snap but snap has an opportunity there but product discovery still happens on
social media which is part of the core your book yes absolutely you know
product discovery happens by word of mouth right sure there’s somebody
telling two friends no matter how much scale you get if you’ve got that one
person talking to two other people that man that just blows your you know
spending budget up up up and so social is very very key to all commerce it’s like yeah
yeah and the thing you know I mean I start I started thinking when we were
preparing for today I started think about all the products that I’ve
purchased in the last couple years of companies that I’d never heard of before
so I have a Casper mattress I have Bole and Branch sheets I have this
stuff and then one other thing and we’ll talk about your favorite company here in
a second but I started buying more Vans tennis shoes because they started
collaborating with artists and letting me customize my shoes we know you’re not
a vans guy who’s your shoe company Nike yeah now why do you love Nike so much
what’s their secret sauce you usually support the latest Nikes in
the hood you’re doing good you know I don’t say it but now but I think we I’m
laughing at that but you know at some point Nike just understands their
audience no matter what niche they realize hey if we’ve got a niche of
people that are buying shoes for soccer that’s an audience that we can talk to
very very uniquely that soccer versus basketball are not going to be the same
thing they don’t talk to all their audiences in the same tone and I love
that about what they do and how they stay relevant that’s how they’ve stayed
relevant for all these decades at this point is that they understand the
conversation that they need to have from not only
listening but taking what they’ve heard and reforming that into marketing
decisions that they make and it’s fabulous now how do you suggest someone
who’s not a multi-billion dollar company that owns a town in Oregon do that
you’ve got to start with the social you’ve got to start listening social is
not everybody wants to – push push push and I don’t want to go back to the old
school of push and pull but I mean you have to start by listening first if you
don’t have a marketing message that’s resonating it’s because you’re not
listening to what everybody is saying if I want to create a product the first
thing I have to do is start listening to what people are missing in a product
maybe that’s already on the market or if there’s a hole in the market people
saying oh I wish I had oh it would be cool if those are ideas for you to put
it out it’s like guys if you love give you a great one
if you’re doing Amazon and you’ve never looked at your competitors negatives
those negative reviews are the one that’s the the conversation you start
having with your customers to say why we’re different than our competitors
that’s the listening and social yeah I’ve thought about that specifically
with books I’m ready to start writing my own and I want to go look at the competitors, then I’ll come
co-hosts your podcast can’t wait you know and actually look
at the negative reviews of other books that might be in the same genre and kind
of just make sure I’m covering those aspects in that book yeah because just
like you’re saying that’s listening to the audience and what they’re saying
right yeah it’s stupid simple now but it used to be hard people used to have to
rent a room with a double glass window should bring in people to you know a
focus group to get this kind of information and it’s free now online you
know one of the things when I do my dragonproof talks one of my takeaways
is the first thing I ask people who are there in attending is if you can’t
describe to someone why someone should buy from you what makes your product
special then you have a problem so with that John if you had to sum up one of
these things into a takeaway what would be the one takeaway you would give our
audience today figure out your business model okay and what really resonates
with you and then proceed look at all the different ways that people are
making money in this ecommerce world right and then it’s like okay cool
because I made 10,000 people are selling how to get started on you know our eBay
or an Amazon and you know what ninety-eight percent of everything in
there is in the help system on those platforms it’s not rocket science people
nobody has the secret bullet I’m just gonna say it right now even though I
want you to buy my book because it does psyche, I’m teasing, you know but
nobody really has a secret bullet it is pretty much you know pretty cut and dry
on how to get started it’s not that complicated yeah I mean I think figuring
out a business model why don’t you spend a few seconds on that what do you mean
by business model so like I said you know I’ll give you my way first thing I
did was started selling stuff around my house the next thing we did is started
finding stuff at retail that we could resell the next thing we did was start
at purchasing a product that was it was from Dell and it was you know like their
reefer refurbished stuff yep right the next thing we started doing it was
actually making our own little product and then
ultimately we took what we were looking at all the different products we were
kind of making and we narrowed it down to the top you know
80/20 we put the 80/20 rule and then we said okay this is the brand we could go
after and that’s how I got into shoelaces you know I love that’s a
different podcast but I love you went from refurbished Dells shoelaces yeah
yeah nice somewhere in there we’ll talk about
another time but somewhere in there with your love of Nike and being a shoe
guy like I still can’t believe you’re not collecting the data trying to upsell
those people to the shoe guys but that’s a whole nother I don’t want one yeah
yeah one day yeah well so speaking of one day we we had you one day thank you
so much for coming to the show we super appreciate your input but for those of
you who want to know more about you other than your book yeah you know here
we are let’s do it kick-ass social commerce for e-preneurs news where would you
like people to go to learn more about you JohnLawson.com simple easy my name
I’m there I’m here to help you, or if you need somebody to speak now look I’ve been
speaking has it been since you know seven or eight years I was trying to
figure that out I think so Wow it’s been a while off to figure it out but it’s
been a long one I do remember when you brought Amazon on as a channel yeah for
Miva so it’s been a minute it has been a minute well I want to thank everyone
today for watching us or listening at home we really appreciate that you spend
your time with us yeah and until next episode stay dragonpoof.

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